Councils at the trough

[Peter]

BBC News is reporting that three Welsh councils have voted to allow
their eligible councillors to gather at the trough and collect the
£20,000. They are:

Carmarthenshire, Torfaen and the Vale of Glamorgan.

[Peter]

On Tue, 21 Oct 2003 07:58:04 +0100, Peter

Post by Peter
BBC News is reporting that three Welsh councils have voted to allow
their eligible councillors to gather at the trough and collect the
Carmarthenshire, Torfaen and the Vale of Glamorgan.

Unsurprisingly, Neath Port Talbot council has voted by 21 votes to 10
to allow those councillors eligible to attend the trough and collect
money donated by the taxpayers of Wales.

[Lyn David Thomas]

Post by Peter
On Tue, 21 Oct 2003 07:58:04 +0100, Peter

Post by Peter
BBC News is reporting that three Welsh councils have voted to allow
their eligible councillors to gather at the trough and collect the
Carmarthenshire, Torfaen and the Vale of Glamorgan.

Unsurprisingly, Neath Port Talbot council has voted by 21 votes to 10
to allow those councillors eligible to attend the trough and collect
money donated by the taxpayers of Wales.

I am all in favour of proper renumeration and expenses for councillors and
other public officials (after all we don't want to encourage a system
where people are open to the temptation of back handers because they are
out of pocket for performing public services...) but I would agree with
Peter that this payment is not needed and gives entirely the wrong
impression to the public. A silly idea that is a public relations
disaster. So why do Labour councillors in a Plaid controlled council vote
with Plaid against and Labour councillors on a Labour controlled council
vote in favour?

[Geraint Lewis]

Post by Lyn David Thomas
I am all in favour of proper renumeration and expenses for councillors and
other public officials (after all we don't want to encourage a system
where people are open to the temptation of back handers because they are
out of pocket for performing public services...) but I would agree with
Peter that this payment is not needed and gives entirely the wrong
impression to the public. A silly idea that is a public relations
disaster. So why do Labour councillors in a Plaid controlled council vote
with Plaid against and Labour councillors on a Labour controlled council
vote in favour?

It's amazing how people conveniently forget about the Labour controlled
council's which have voted against offering the money. This newsgroup
can be worse than the Daily Mail for ignoring the facts.

[Lyn David Thomas]

Post by Geraint Lewis

Post by Lyn David Thomas
I am all in favour of proper renumeration and expenses for councillors and
other public officials (after all we don't want to encourage a system
where people are open to the temptation of back handers because they are
out of pocket for performing public services...) but I would agree with
Peter that this payment is not needed and gives entirely the wrong
impression to the public. A silly idea that is a public relations
disaster. So why do Labour councillors in a Plaid controlled council vote
with Plaid against and Labour councillors on a Labour controlled council
vote in favour?

It's amazing how people conveniently forget about the Labour controlled
council's which have voted against offering the money. This newsgroup
can be worse than the Daily Mail for ignoring the facts.

No I haven't. Why then have some voted for and others against? Has this
divided Labour?

[Geraint Lewis]

Post by Lyn David Thomas
No I haven't.

Oh yes you have because you completely avoided the point as it reduced
the effectiveness of your attack, which was designed to imply that all
members of the Labour party were greedy, money grabbing gits. We all
know that scoring points off the party of power is more important than
the policies that your party has.

Post by Lyn David Thomas
Why then have some voted for and others against? Has this
divided Labour?

Not as far as I am aware and why should it? The Welsh Assembly
authorised the local authorities to deploy a policy which could be used
to encourage councillors to resign and bring in new blood. Some councils
have felt that there is no need to do this while other councils have
felt it beneficial. It's a personal decision for each council so sorry
Lyn you won't find any points scoring in this area either.

[Lyn David Thomas]

Post by Geraint Lewis

Post by Lyn David Thomas
No I haven't.

Oh yes you have because you completely avoided the point as it reduced
the effectiveness of your attack, which was designed to imply that all
members of the Labour party were greedy, money grabbing gits.

No I wasn't - I pointed out that Labour members of some authorities voted
one way and others in another voted differently, that is not saying that
they are all money grabbing gits.

Post by Geraint Lewis
We all
know that scoring points off the party of power is more important than
the policies that your party has.

Post by Lyn David Thomas
Why then have some voted for and others against? Has this
divided Labour?

Not as far as I am aware and why should it?

The fact that Labour members are seriously divided on it I think is
evidenced by their behaviour.

Post by Geraint Lewis
The Welsh Assembly
authorised the local authorities to deploy a policy which could be used
to encourage councillors to resign and bring in new blood. Some councils
have felt that there is no need to do this while other councils have
felt it beneficial.

LOL I don't think you are being fully honest here, some Labour concillors
have realised how unpopular this is and have voted accordingly.

Post by Geraint Lewis
It's a personal decision for each council so sorry
Lyn you won't find any points scoring in this area either.

So you are all in favour of this policy then.

[Geraint Lewis]

Post by Lyn David Thomas
No I wasn't - I pointed out that Labour members of some authorities voted
one way and others in another voted differently, that is not saying that
they are all money grabbing gits.

While failing to mention that there were Labour councils who had voted
against it as well.

Your point was designed to specifically cause the reader to think that
Labour controlled councils were voting one way, while other councils
were voting differently.

Post by Lyn David Thomas
The fact that Labour members are seriously divided on it I think is
evidenced by their behaviour.

It is evidence that there are sections of the Labour party with
different views. Using the term 'divided' is an attempt to lead the
reader into concluding that the Labour party is in conflict with itself
over the issue.

Post by Lyn David Thomas
LOL I don't think you are being fully honest here, some Labour concillors
have realised how unpopular this is and have voted accordingly.

I'm stating the facts, some councils have voted for and some against the
implementation of the policy. You are not in a position to know the
motivation behind each individual votes and in most cases, neither is
anybody else who posts to or reads this newsgroup. Therefore, your point
and the attempt to discredit me, is purely conjecture.

Post by Lyn David Thomas
So you are all in favour of this policy then.

It has its advantages and disadvantages. The description that the policy
has merits but is flawed in its implementation is probably correct.
However, I also believe there are issues in some local authorities where
this policy, however, flawed will prove to be of benefit as it will
cause a churn in the elected representatives. The money is, after all a
good bribe for those who are greedy.

[Alex Staplethorn]

Post by Lyn David Thomas

Post by Peter
On Tue, 21 Oct 2003 07:58:04 +0100, Peter

Post by Peter
BBC News is reporting that three Welsh councils have voted to allow
their eligible councillors to gather at the trough and collect the
Carmarthenshire, Torfaen and the Vale of Glamorgan.

Unsurprisingly, Neath Port Talbot council has voted by 21 votes to 10
to allow those councillors eligible to attend the trough and collect
money donated by the taxpayers of Wales.

I am all in favour of proper renumeration and expenses for councillors and
other public officials (after all we don't want to encourage a system
where people are open to the temptation of back handers because they are
out of pocket for performing public services...) but I would agree with
Peter that this payment is not needed and gives entirely the wrong
impression to the public. A silly idea that is a public relations
disaster. So why do Labour councillors in a Plaid controlled council vote
with Plaid against and Labour councillors on a Labour controlled council
vote in favour?

Why do Conservative members in the Vale of Glamorgan vote in favour
while Conservative AMs vote against?

Why did the Plaid Cymru Deputy Leader of Caerphilly Council back the
scheme, saying "In principle, the scheme has merit. If someone has
been doing their civic duties for many years, they will have missed
out on pensions"?

Why did Conservative, Liberal Democrat and Plaid Cymru AMs all support
the scheme (or at the very least fail to object to it) when it was
discussed by the Assembly's local government committee two years ago?

[Lyn David Thomas]

Post by Alex Staplethorn
Why do Conservative members in the Vale of Glamorgan vote in favour
while Conservative AMs vote against?
Why did the Plaid Cymru Deputy Leader of Caerphilly Council back the
scheme, saying "In principle, the scheme has merit. If someone has
been doing their civic duties for many years, they will have missed
out on pensions"?

Yes there is merit in rewarding long service, and the correct way would be
through a contributory pension scheme, that has merit and that I suspect
he supported. You failed to mention that he voted against the present
scheme because it is badly flawed.

Post by Alex Staplethorn
Why did Conservative, Liberal Democrat and Plaid Cymru AMs all support
the scheme (or at the very least fail to object to it) when it was
discussed by the Assembly's local government committee two years ago?

Do you have the minutes of that committee? It could be that the scheme
was very different or was set up completely differently.

[Peter]

On Thu, 23 Oct 2003 07:58:29 +0100, "Lyn David Thomas"

Post by Lyn David Thomas

Post by Peter
On Tue, 21 Oct 2003 07:58:04 +0100, Peter

Post by Peter
BBC News is reporting that three Welsh councils have voted to allow
their eligible councillors to gather at the trough and collect the
Carmarthenshire, Torfaen and the Vale of Glamorgan.

Unsurprisingly, Neath Port Talbot council has voted by 21 votes to 10
to allow those councillors eligible to attend the trough and collect
money donated by the taxpayers of Wales.

I am all in favour of proper renumeration and expenses for councillors and
other public officials (after all we don't want to encourage a system
where people are open to the temptation of back handers because they are
out of pocket for performing public services...) but I would agree with
Peter that this payment is not needed and gives entirely the wrong
impression to the public. A silly idea that is a public relations
disaster. So why do Labour councillors in a Plaid controlled council vote
with Plaid against and Labour councillors on a Labour controlled council
vote in favour?

I note that the Vale of Glamorgan is one council that has voted for
the money - not a Labour stronghold I suspect, so greed and stupidity
isn't confined to the labour ranks. I would love to be able to see
the brwakdown of the votes in the various councils - any ideas if this
info is available to the taxpayer?

Yes, I agree - a PR disaster. I expect to see this subject brought up
again at the time of the elections and Plaid should do very well out
of it. it really is ghard to see haow anyone can come up with a
rational justification fot the policy. This coupled with the increase
in Council tax and the failure to deliver any sort of improvement to
local services will, I suspect, cause many voters to migrate to other
parties.

[Lyn David Thomas]

I note that the Vale of Glamorgan is one council that has voted for the
money - not a Labour stronghold I suspect, so greed and stupidity isn't
confined to the labour ranks. I would love to be able to see the
brwakdown of the votes in the various councils - any ideas if this info
is available to the taxpayer?

If a roll call vote was taken then each council should have a record of
how everyone voted. If it was just a show of hand then no. I believe
that Caerffili council had a roll call vote.

It may be a case of going from council web site to council web site to
find out.

Yes, I agree - a PR disaster. I expect to see this subject brought up
again at the time of the elections and Plaid should do very well out of
it. it really is ghard to see haow anyone can come up with a rational
justification fot the policy. This coupled with the increase in Council
tax and the failure to deliver any sort of improvement to local services
will, I suspect, cause many voters to migrate to other parties.

I can see a case for a pension (paid for by councillors and the local
authority like other employees) for former councillors, but a one off
payment to certain ones without safeguards (like letting them back in
under a byelection without claw back) seems daft. But that would mean a
recognition that councillors are paid officials like anyone else and it
would mean an end to the status of councillors as volunteers - which to be
honest has happened anyway.

The whole issue of councillors' expences is so contentious that I think it
is time that it was taken out of the hands of local councils. They should
all recieve a simple flat rate allowence (I'd suggest something like 10K
pa) with additional payments to leaders, cabinet members and chairs. Plus
seceteraial assistance from a pool of people employed by the council and
the loan of a computer at home. These alowences should be set by an
outside body and inflation only increases given. I don't think it is
reasonably to expect them to do the job for nothing - but excessive
payments are wrong in principle and do nothing to endear politicians to
the public.

[Lyn David Thomas]

Post by Peter
BBC News is reporting that three Welsh councils have voted to allow
their eligible councillors to gather at the trough and collect the
Carmarthenshire, Torfaen and the Vale of Glamorgan.

By the way this is Wales voting on the scheme drempt up by the office of
the deputy prime minister. England will get to see it shortly.

[canofworms]

Perhaps Lyn can explain why Plaid Cymru Councillors voted in favour of the scheme?

Post by Lyn David Thomas

Post by Peter
BBC News is reporting that three Welsh councils have voted to allow
their eligible councillors to gather at the trough and collect the
Carmarthenshire, Torfaen and the Vale of Glamorgan.

By the way this is Wales voting on the scheme drempt up by the office of
the deputy prime minister. England will get to see it shortly.

[Lyn David Thomas]

Post by canofworms
Perhaps Lyn can explain why Plaid Cymru Councillors voted in favour of the scheme?

I have no idea,how many and where? Those authorities that Plaid control
voted against. And Canofworms - who are you today?

[Lyn David Thomas]

Post by canofworms
Perhaps Lyn can explain why Plaid Cymru Councillors voted in favour of the scheme?

I have no idea,how many and where? Those authorities that Plaid control
voted against. And Canofworms - who are you today?

[Celtic King]

Post by Lyn David Thomas

Post by canofworms
Perhaps Lyn can explain why Plaid Cymru Councillors voted in favour of the scheme?

I have no idea,how many and where? Those authorities that Plaid control
voted against. And Canofworms - who are you today?

The whole thing was a Labour party initiative,and entirely opposed by
Plaid Cymru and the Tories.
I think one or two individual Tory and Plaid members didn't think it
was an entirely bad thing,but not in it's present form..